derBerliton Interview with Fania Oz- Salzberger
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Special derBerliton Interview with Fania Oz- Salzberger, Friday 28th March in Berlin Mitte
Interview by Lissi Ahrens-Heimer
How did your way lead you to Germany?
The history of Germany is the topic of my doctoral dissertation. Unlike most Israelis dedicated themselves in the Studies of the Holocaust, I was more interested in the earlier German history, the “Aufklärungszeit” and wrote about the impact of BritishBritish and what not. political thought on Germany and what German thinkers took up from the
I experienced a very early interest in Germany and even studied German at the Goethe Institute in Tel Aviv. The first time that I came to Germany was in the early 90th, shortly after the fall of the Berlin wall. It was a fascinating visit and an intense experience. It was the begining of my love affair with Berlin.
So you fell in love with Berlin?
I fell in love with Berlin and in hate with Berlin. It has been an ongoing combination of fascination of both Berlins faces.I would say that next to Tel Aviv, Berlin is the most lively and energetic city in the world, next to Jerusalem the most fascinating.
Ever since then, I have been coming back to Berlin as often as possible and I even lived here for a year. During this year I also wrote my book about “Israelis in Berlin”.
What in you eyes is important for the German-Israeli dialogue and what should young people or institutions work on in order to strengthen the dialogue between Israel and Germany?
First of all, the words “dialogue” and “work” are not needed at all sometimes, one of the beautiful things that you can find here in Berlin, I have been finding them now since a while, is that relations between young Israelis and young Germans flow very naturally. Many spontaneous causes rise all the way from doing arts and studying together until to falling in love with each other.
It happens all the time and that’s not a dialogue, that’s not work, this is a natural flow.
One of the points in my book was to explain this natural flow.
How come that we are naturally familiar to another and very often quite attracted to one another? What it is it that we have except a shared dark past? Because a shared dark past is not enough to create a spontaneous interaction, a dark shared past is the material for working on the dialogue but I am far more interested in the non-working aspect. I am far more interested in the naturalness. Beyond this all is a deep familiarity and some kind of a relationship between many young Germans and Israelis.
Besides this natural connection it is important of course to know history and engage ourselves with our histories.
What do you think about the Israeli - German internet platforms and the ongoing exchange programs?
I am totally for it! In the old days a lot of Israelis had the conviction that Israelis should not live outside of Israel, especially not in Germany. When I wrote my book about the Israelis who are living in Berlin, some people asked me how I could write about this: Israelis in Berlin was the worst thing for them. This is all nonsense to me and I think there should be a big Israeli Diaspora in the world, its good for the Israelis and its good for the world. The fact that there is a lively Israeli life in Berlin and not just of individuals, people working on their own in arts or scholarships or private life but also some kind of community and online community is brilliant.
Berlin is an inspiring environment and it’s the perfect place for creative minds to come together. Both Israelis and Germans find their way in a community here and indeed online communities are a great thing and I would like to think of myself as a remote member of that community even though I am an Israeli Zionist, there is no contradiction there.
You once said: "Every young Israeli should once go to Germany in his life and every German should go to Israel", why?
Absolutely, if possible more than one time! I have seen Israelis in Berlin and I have seen Germans in Tel Aviv and especially the first time is always a pretty amazing experience.
For example I envy people who come to Israel the first time. I was too young and born into it but it is a very amazing experience sometimes mind-blowing because it defies many expectations that one has. Everyone has some mind set expectations and you come to Tel Aviv or Berlin and they all blow away. The berlinton.de and the other projects are great they the best online communities and in some aspect I think the whole of Berlin is one big online community. It’s great that the Israelis are a part of it.
The picture that young Israelis have about Germany and young Germans about Israel is very often very wrong. Do you see an importance for them to work journalistically to draw their own portrait about their country?
The media does draw a very bad picture about Israel sometimes.
Definitely by saying that I do not say that everything my government does is very good, because it is not. Indeed I am deeply critical of the last few governments of Israel I belong to the large opposition that wants to work much more effectively on peace with the Palestinians. Of course I am critical of the Palestinians but that’s a different story. Basically I think Israeli governments have got it wrong, at least for the last decade, if not longer. However alongside this criticism there is definitely a misrepresentation of Israel especially in the European media and there is a lot to be done about it. Mainly I want to point out two things: first of all, Israelis are not their government, which is a clear fact also for any other country. Secondly life in Israel is far subtler and variegated and lively and even good it is different to what you see on television. This is an excellent reason for both Germans and Israelis to work on both countries from a journalistic point that will already deepen the good relations, we already have.
What would you never have thought of Germans?
That German men can be sexy!!! (Both laughing)
Would you agree or disagree?
For the Germans I would rather disagree, with the Israelis I totally agree.
You see, maybe it is a universal thing we all look elsewhere.
Will you continue to study the relation between young Israelis and Germans in the future?
I will study aspects of Berlin for all my life this city is a real meting pot somehow. At some points it really changes peoples lives: there is something about Berlin and Israelis and I think it is the same for a young German in Tel Aviv. In a deep way Berlin and Tel Aviv are sisters. We need to work in order to explain how they have become sisters, it’s very natural that they are sisters but we need to think how it happened. I spoke about familiarity which is part of the adventure here: discovering how we are familiar to each other in all sorts of ways. I have lived a sabbatical year in America this year and I feel far more stranger to the Americans. I think it has something to do with the language, the intonation, the body language, the liberalism or you name it that makes us feel more at home here.
Do you recognize Israeli culture in Germany?
Yes of course. I am a descendant of Ukrainian Jews and my husband is a descendant from people who were from Frankfurt and Vienna.
Berlin has something from us in it. Berlin is stamped by it's Jewish past and we are stamped by the European past and there are similarities. To be more explicit Modern Hebrew we don’t speak Hebrew as the bible spoke, we probably have in terms of musicality in terms of our vowels we have more from German than from every other language, which is why it is relatively easy for me to talk Germany very naturally.
I don’t have to make an effort and its the same for Germans speaking Ivrit with a distinct accent but still we have a kind of free access to each others language, words, mentalities and over all this you have the dark sky of the holocaust. Of course this is a totally ambivalent fascination. Last night in the discussion at the Heinrich-Böll Stiftung where we talked about “Heimat” I said that Berlin is to me both : “Heimlich” und “unheimlich” to me. You can’t think of a greater combination for fascination.
Now let me say something about “Normalität”. A lot of people say a long time has passed, we should let history be history but I don’t think we need “Normalität”. Young people in this city are not looking for “Normalität”, anyways. The German-Israeli relations are still abnormal but its what I called in previous writing "die Neue Unnormalität". Its a new abnormality because its no longer the 50ths or 60th and this generation has a abnormality which based on interaction and fascination and this is the combination which makes Berlin what it is. Berlin has a culture of visibility and inhabitants that want themselves to be heard and seen. It's a culture of political involvement on many levels. Berlin is very variegated and liberal and it sometimes brings out what is good in Israelis and the same goes for Tel Aviv. So I am going back to the point where I said that more Germans should visit Israel and find its complexity and fascination.
I am deeply hoping that Berlin and Tel Aviv keep their good correspondence and online communities going, because they are in some ways made for each other.
